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Is the insurane company required to pay for ridge cap and starter course?

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April 6, 2012 at 10:26 p.m.

TomB

Spot-on Twill.....exacto-mundo....couldn't have said it better myself....

April 6, 2012 at 5:23 p.m.

Rockydog

I thought this question was the quetion of the nmonth last month,too. Hey, webmaster, let's change it up.

April 2, 2012 at 7:32 p.m.

twill59

soldierboy: Simply put there is no "loophole". As there is very little (no?) enforcement, there is also very little recognition of the problem.

If the IRS actually got out of bed and went to work 5 days a week, 8 hrs per day, this problem would most likely be eliminated within a month.

The Gooberm$nt wants to blame everything on lack of funds, but won't get off their lazy duffs to go get some.

To me it's either/or: Go level the playing field with the money you've been given, or.......set us all free and eliminate every frickin' law

April 1, 2012 at 8:26 a.m.

soldierboy

dougger222 Said: One of my best friends is a 3 state storm chaser. Back in 08 a storm chaser sat at my wifes bar and they started talking about roofing. He said in the past 3 years his company roofed over 1,500 houses and he has 150 mexicans working for him. His wife was very pleased with all the hail damage in their back yard so he got to run his business out of his home for one season. Once hundreds of roofs were done it was back on the road.

Is he paying Workers Comp, Payroll Liabilities, and are all 150 of those working for him Employees or Subcontractors as the IRS definition? Are they in the country legally and paying their fair share of Taxes to their City they are working in, State, Federal? This is part of the problem with Stormers.

The answer (The actual) would be No. But I am sure they have a loophole to cover their butts. If you run illegally by the definitions of the IRS, State, Federal or Local then you are a problem, thief, liar, and have no Ethics or Morals for such a great Industry. I love our Industry and am proud when someone asks me what I do for a living. Not many men can do what we do! To be politically correct, hahaha screw that! The statement made is blanket, if you fit that bill then look in the mirror and see what you can change before you end up loosing it all.

March 10, 2012 at 1:16 p.m.

Wallace Stine

BB2eall

I have posted a link that addresses this in detail for your review.

http://support.estimationpro.com/entries/21120382-is-a-insurance-carrier-required-pay-for-ridge-cap-and-starter

March 10, 2012 at 10:01 a.m.

spudder1

I know that in the State of Florida all insurance companies are required to pay for roofing and construction per the FBC building codes, also the work must be completed by a licensed contractor. I do know that this is not true in other states, we were working in Texas doing commercial reroofing and when Hurricane IKE came rolling thru many insurance companies started to pull their bull chit and include certain items as part of the job without pay. In some areas you can follow the insurance guide lines and get away way by installing a chit roof covering, we chose not to work in Texas and thanks to the Texas windstorm folks we left. Oh well each does their own thing but here in Florida they have to conform to the FBC building codes, thats probably why many insurers have left the great state of Florida lol

March 5, 2012 at 4:45 p.m.

dougger222

For the record I'm not a storm chaser as all my leads are word of mouth. One of my best friends is a 3 state storm chaser. Back in 08 a storm chaser sat at my wifes bar and they started talking about roofing. He said in the past 3 years his company roofed over 1,500 houses and he has 150 mexicans working for him. His wife was very pleased with all the hail damage in their back yard so he got to run his business out of his home for one season. Once hundreds of roofs were done it was back on the road.

It's been said to me by seasoned adjusters that a very good living can be secured as an adjuster willing to travel. One said it best. If you want to make a lot of money and work a lot it's a perfect job. You will more than likely get divorced and your kids won't call you dad. Have met several husband and wife adjusting teams, brothers, sisters, and boyfriend/girlfriends.

March 5, 2012 at 4:26 p.m.

dougger222

In theory the insurance carrier is not obligated to pay for ridge or starters like others have stated it's built into the waste factor.

Here's an example of a recent roof I did. Adjusters scope based on EV, Sq's off 75.44 Sq's on 87 (hip roof) Materials used, Sq's 81.67 Starters 6 bundles In this situation the adjuster paid for ridge cap and we used 14 bundles. That being said on a fairly cut up hip roof we used 5.33 less sq's than the adjuster paid for.

In almost every case it's a waste of time to try to get an adjuster to pay for ridge cap on the 3 tab. Some adjusters claim they can't pay for a low profile ridge on a laminate shingle. Have even had to convince some adjusters they owe to replace high profile ridge cap.

Back a few years I included R&R ridge on all estimates with 3 tabs but after getting called out on it 9 out of 10 times decided to enter the length in the line item but below would add, This line item is to note the amount of ridge cap currently on this roof.

As far as starter shingles? Good luck! I had one adjuster write a claim including starters. I was going to punch up the roof in X but after seeing he was 8sq over and double the required ice and water just told him his estimate looked fine. The final price was $425 on a 6/12.

Do all storm chasers work off adjusters estimates? 1 out of 100 claims I may work off an adjusters number but more often than not they are thousands low. Have had adjusters write a claim for X amount and after final negotiations are made the price is doubled! Over the years I've learned to first secure the job then submit an estimate to the insurance company at which time upon request will provide one to the insured.

If you know how to write estimates in X you should do fairly well. In my area current X prices for a standard roof is $350 a square. Most "contractors" sub to a crew from the DEEP South at $50 a square. Materials your looking at no more than $150 a square. $150 a square is left to go back to the "contractor". If you are not making any money at $150 a square after buying materials and paying your "crew" to put them on you got a problem. Keep in mind some roofs hit $450 a square same install price and same material price, now there's $250 left...

Kudo's to the guys getting the insurance company to pay $500-750 per square for a one layer tear off with asphalt shingles... No wonder my rates are so high J/K!!!

From my experiance some adjusters and even some insurance carriers will pay just about any estimate for a roof replacement to close a file. I guess if you work enough claims you can get your big bucks sooner than later.

Personaly I have no problem getting $450 a square for a 7/12 hip roof, pay my crew (white locals) $75 a square R&R and $150 a square for materials. What's left is about 5 times more money than I would get to roof the house as new construction.

In my area the going rate for a non insurance job to an insurance job is mind blowing. At the last manufacturers meeting 125 contractors were asked to write down the price to do a specific tear off. The answers were anounced but no names were given. I was the second highest and I based my price off what a typical insurance company would pay based on current X pricing. When they anounced my price ($2K higher than the third highest) people gasped. For the record the highest bid was a few hundred higher than mine, figured he knew how to use X too!!! The lowest bids (several) came in were I'd be at after paying my crew, pulling the permit, buying materials, and paying for the dump fee! This left $0 left over...

March 5, 2012 at 1:41 p.m.

soldierboy

I would have to say that the guys that are taking "THE NEXT STEP" in their carears started with a stormer. (They couldn't have been at the school of hard knocks) That's what they know and they think they can do it better than the quy that stopped paying them. Come to think of it, that's where all the young guys are. They think that the grass is greener on the other side. SO, let's get a couple ignorant guys to go out and look for storm damage. Get whatever the insurance company pays, find the cheapest SUB-Contracted "(EMPLOYEE)" and BAM, we got ourselves a business. Sad thing is they put themselves right out of a home after awhile, can't pay the truck payment and eventually they are out of work. Now, they want to come work for a good company that squeaked by the season looking for work. Full Circle and I keep seeing this happen like a roller coaster. my soap box story :-)

March 5, 2012 at 9:32 a.m.

Estimators on Call

Not sure if half the folks coming out of adjuster school know what OSHA is.

Soldier boy is right... too many inexperienced folks are desperate for their piece and so they accept insanely low prices that barely pay the bills. It is about doing the job, indemnifying the customer, and getting compensated fairly for the job done.

March 5, 2012 at 8:17 a.m.

TomB

I've always marveled at "insurance" work never inludes utilizing WC ins....We all know the predominant "ins wk"/storm-chaser types skirt labor burdens via representing employees as "subs"....

March 5, 2012 at 7:37 a.m.

twill59

I had a conversation with a TYPE A insurance agent last summer. He sez "Oh yeah, OSHA safety standards are already figured into insurance pricing"

There is truly a mental disorder at work here.

I don't think roofing insurance is in the pricing. I KNOW that work comp IS NOT. Now OSHA is priced into Exactimate?

Whew. They really do teach lying in college don't they?

March 5, 2012 at 6:32 a.m.

TomB

Now your talk'n soldierboy! That's how we roll....

March 5, 2012 at 2:09 a.m.

Estimators on Call

Mileage is going to vary on that one... If you are talking 3 tab, it is pretty tough... if you are talking architectural, then you have a better chance. There are a few things that will hedge your bets, like showing them the installation instructions for the product, but even then, you are going to have a rough one...

There are so many factors you are dealing with... Experience of the Adjuster, unwritten internal policies of the insurance company, regional requirements, local and state laws and codes... the list goes on and on and any one thing can effect the outcome of the adjuster meeting.

You can have two houses, in the same tract, with identical damage and coverage, get two totally different outcomes. Roofing, as far as insurance goes, is the wild west. Water damage is much easier. Pretty much a cut and dried situation (no pun intended) because of the calculators that will tell you the exact amount of equipment needed for the drying process. You are essentially getting them an invoice instead of a bid.

Good luck. Dealing with this on a daily basis, I totally understand your frustration.

March 4, 2012 at 8:24 p.m.

twill59

God Bless you soldierboy. Not a word of BS in there.


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